More on Barn Sourness

I received another question on barn sourness. A reader wrote - "I have a really good trail broke gelding, but he has one vice and that is whenever we go out at some point he decides its time to turn around for home. I have been always able to work through it easily and we continue on, just wondering if you have a method or tips for stopping the behavior completely. Thanks!"

​ I have known some barn sour horses over the years. As far as a horse taking over and refusing to go forward or turning for home on his own, it's a lot more common to have a horse who jiggs on the way back to the barn. And some people add to this by not controlling the gait or speed going back. I've always tried to look past this as I need a horse to go the direction I want at the gait and speed I want.

As far as your horse, just deciding it's time to turn around, well, first I admire his initiative! It's likely some mental pressure builds and he gets his relief by turning for home. The fact that you can work through it is good, and that likely his thinking shares equal if not more so with his instinct.

The worst cases of barn sourness are when the horse just stops and will not go forward in a direction away from his home barn. And I had another case of a rider I know who's horse would brace against the rider and reins, always turning towards home.<br><br>

In first case this rider would really bang on the horse to try to go forward then spur him which caused the horse to come off his front end - that's when he brought the horse to me. I only had him a couple of days and rode him in the arena where the horse would eventually want to move to the gate which was close to the other horses, so I made that end of the arena (the gate end) the hardest work for him, letting him take a break at the far end. This is likely a common interpretation of Tom Dorrance's advice 'to make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult (or work)'.  And in a couple sessions this horse was much better and did not try to move to the gate. This rider picked up the horse and I did not see him again. I doubt he had much success with that horse as this particular rider only wanted the horse to see his perspective and not look at the way the horse saw things.

I would try this - once your horse decides it's time to turn around and go home, don't let him turn, instead back him then turn him (make backing and turning your idea) then go ahead and go in that direction towards home making it work,..stopping, backing and jumping out; trotting small circles. You'd be doing this with the horse heading in the direction he wants to go, but it's you that is directing his feet and I'd do this for a couple minutes.

I wouldn't double him because as you make those turns he'll be facing away from home. I think the circles are okay because as you ride a circle away from him, his head will be bent a bit towards home.

So after some work facing home, turn him and walk him away from home. He'll likely be fairly quick to stop and turn around for home again, so repeat the work facing home for another minute or two, then turn him away and walk him away from home. You'll likely need to go this several times. At some point when you are walking him away from home, turn him and walk him back home. It has to be your idea to turn for home at this point - don't let it be his idea, but don't ask for too much in the beginning.

Laying a Horse Down and other Gentling Methods

Martha wrote to ask about trying to get over the hump on a real anxious horse. "Dear Sir, I was in a clinic watching a trainer laying a horse down onto the ground on his side to get the horse to trust him. One of my friends said that you can do the same thing with draping a towel over the horse's head so it can't see and has to learn how to trust the person. I have a horse that is always being hyper and can't hardly stand still and was wondering if laying him down on the ground or doing the towel training with my friend's help would help. Sincerely, Marta."

I've laid a few horses down and am ashamed to say the first few times I did it, it didn't need to be done. In other words laying the horse down was for me and not for the horse. In fact, it is likely it did some good only once. One time it took me 20 minutes from start to getting him to lay down. This was about 10 years ago and once I got started and I couldn't just stop and allow that horse to understand his resistance was successful. I remember hoping nobody saw me. Not that I was embarrassed about taking so long, but just embarrassed because I realized I was doing this just for me - that the horse did not need this at this point, nor really ever would benefit from laying down.

So I have to say that laying a horse down is not something I would suggest unless I was there in person to see the horse and the issues with the horse and even then it would be a high probability that I would recommend against it.

As far as what you mentioned on 'towel training', I have used a shirt to do blindfold training so the horse would allow me to have control on the ground, leading him with a shirt wrapped over his head. I was doing this so I could do it again if I had to lead him through smoke or a fire, or to cover his head to protect him from hail during a storm.  It came in handy a few times, actually.

What I found out was that this helped the horse mentally quite a bit, making him more soft and accepting, so there is some merit or use to your described towel training, however my primary motive was to prepare him when I needed to cover his head.

You do have to have an element of trust with your horse when you can drape a cover, like a rain slicker in the photos, and lead him on the ground or ride him.

 His steps will be tentative as, of course, his sight is taken away, his sense of hearing is somewhat degraded and some horses will have to gentled in handling their head and particularly their ears before you can start....but all goods things for the horse. But I don't think it's going to replace laying a horse down, when that is necessary, because when laying down a horse his flight ability is taken away.



There are some other issues that can contribute to a horse appearing to be what you call hyper-active: Excessive feed and/or high sugar content in feeds; horses not being ridden much.  You have to teach him through pressure and release, what you expect of him. Sometimes I have started of with a horse that can stand quiet by working him with some energy (this is the pressure) then offering him a chance to stand quiet (this is the release).  Sometimes standing quiet will only last a short time, but if it is an improvement, then take it and build on it.

Now I want to be real clear on this next point as it is just my observation and I mean no offense to anyone................Most people I work with are ladies. The issue with ladies is that a much larger percentage of women have more empathy for their horses than men have for their horses. But women are more likely to let their horses get away with behavioral issues perhaps viewing their horses as equal partners, as opposed to being the leader of the team.  In some cases this contributes to the horse being non-respectful such as moving his feet anytime he wants to, or pushing into the handler's space, and pulling on the lead line or reins.
  
On the other hand some men just seem to have too much ego, some of the time, wrapped up into horses, taking non-compliance from the horse personally, and are more likely to see the horse as a replaceable tool.  I used to be that way, and frankly, like an alcoholic, am always cognizant that I likely have the personality where I can still regress to that.    

There is no doubt that some of the best horse people are women and I have no doubt there are thousands of women who are a better horsemen than I am or will be.  What I can't understand is that generally women have no problem telling men what to do - my wife sure doesn't.  So  an example is putting the toilet seat down - so  I know ladies have it in themselves to be the boss of a partnership.  It doesn't mean being unfair, just means being in charge.   

How Do Horses Think?

Melanie wrote an e-mail to ask "I love my two horses, both are distinctly different in their temperament, spookiness and just general behavior, just as my kids are vastly different too. I am also a elementary school teacher and it is fascinating to see the differences in how 6 and 7 year old children process information and make decisions. I know I am missing something by not understanding the mental processes of my horses. What do you make out of the left brain-right brain theory and how to approach certain horses in manner for them to learn? More importantly to me is how does the weekend rider use some of these esoteric concepts."

Hi Melanie, I don't have a good understanding of theory of what parts (left or right) of a horse's brain drive what emotion or action. Your question actually sparked an interest in looking further into this area that I first heard Pat Parelli describing years ago. Clinton Anderson also routinely discusses horses' right brain - left brain, how that impacts on how they learn, and how a handler approaches asking something of a horse but maybe not in as much detail as Parelli. My limited understanding is that horses will demonstrate characteristics or traits, that categorize them into a "left brain dominant or right brain dominant horse", including, but certainly not limited to traits like calmness or nervousness; more curious as opposed to reactive; and, dominating as opposed to being more submissive.

I'm all a better understanding of a horse, how and why the horse thinks, if it helps two way communications between horse and handler. I've just never had a formal checklist or a process for analyzing how horses think so I rely on what I know or think I know to be facts when dealing with horses......which for the record, is much tougher than figuring out women.

We know that some horses are just more reactive than others. We all accept that horses are naturally wary - that they are prey animals and come into the world ready to flee to avoid perceived dangers. I think that the environment and experiences that a horse accumulates has alot to do with just how reactive they are. Imagine the horse that has been ridden, since the first bit in his mouth, by a heavy handed rider. They learn to associate any pressure from the bit in the mouth with discomfort and pain and get bracey or throw their head in avoidance of what they are thinking comes next....like a flinch response.

I believe that with patience and training we can influence a horse to think or reason something out before they physical react to that instinct to avoid perceived danger or even bolt and run. I try to give a horse a chance or time to think, to absorb a lesson. So on the concept of pressure and release, you can add the word pause, as opposed to pressure, release then rapidly applying pressure again, then release. I think that while you are giving the horse a release when he gives you the requested behavior or movement, the rapid, continued action of pressure and release with the time in-between to absorb that lesson can build mental pressure in the horse, confusing him and working against what you are trying to achieve.

As wary as horses naturally are, they are curious as well as we use that in many situations as well, again if you give them time. An example would be approaching an obstacle on horseback and your horse alerts, stops, tenses up, feels like he is close to turning and bolting, moving his head up and down, left and right and likely snorting too. We've all seen this too. Ten seconds seem like 5 minutes and if in some sort of obstacle competition too many riders will get impatient and try to push their horse forward before he accepts it is safe. Given adequate time to accept it on his own, and you are likely going to have to keep the horse from turning around or backing out, a horse will usually move forward and eventually drop his nose on the obstacle. Whether this takes 5 minutes or 10 minutes, the horse has just replaced his instinct with a deliberate thinking process. I think this is what we are trying to achieve and the heck if I know it comes from his left brain or right brain.

Handling different horses often reminds me of a leader I had in the service who admonished me to treat all my men the same. This is a concept I just could not adhere to. Everybody's different, like horses, so in my book as long as you treated each one fairly everything would turn out alright. So with horse's I think if you give them the time they need to develop that thinking response you'll be a lot more successful in getting them to accept and perform. Setting up situations where the thing you are asking for them is easy and avoiding what you are asking is difficult, but giving them the time to find that right answer. Giving a horse sufficient time is just not sticking with something until he gets it, it's making sure the timing of your release is particular for the horse to associate that release (or absence of pressure) to what he did to earn it that release.

I often see riders working on lateral flexion where the ask their horse for lateral flexion and when the horse gives it, they get a release but get immediate pressure for lateral flexion again. This is another example where if you gave the horse some time, often no more than 5 to 10 seconds before asking again, will be a much more understandable lesson for the horse.

Another example is when I throw feed for my horses. I won't drop the hay into their feeder until they step back and be respectful of my space. Occasionally one of my horses will stand too close waiting at me to drop the hay. I just wait and watch their expression. Then the understanding takes place, they'll back a few steps and stand while I drop the hay and give them a signal to approach. I don't know how to describe it, but it's rewarding to watch the change of expression as they figure out why I am waiting to throw feed and what they are supposed to do......"Oh yeah, I almost forgot,..I have to back up and wait".

Another example may be in the saddle and getting in contact with the bit or bosal asking them to soften and drop their head and nose. Initially the horse will likely start backing and if you maintain that same contact, they will soon stop because the pressure was not released. Sooner or later they will drop their head, maybe only a tiny bit, and as they do you release the contact with the bit or bosal. Your timing on the release has to be pretty exact so the horse relate getting soft with the release of that pressure. Some riders, I've seen them and likely you have too, will pick up the reins and get in contact with a horse asking him to get soft and break at the poll, but while in contact before the horse drops his head and nose, they will release the contact to get a better grip and in effect giving that horse a release for not doing anything. That has got to be confusing to a horse.

And yet another example is when I am helping a new rider or new horse in a sorting pen. Knowing that either the horse or the rider, or both, will be timid of a bunch of cows and that pushing a horse too fast will have negative consequences for the mental state of the horse and his confidence, I'll have the new rider/horse stay on my outside flank as I ride a slow circle around the cows a couple of times, then switch directions so the horse can see the cows out of both eyes. As the cows move away, the horse and rider gain confidence. For the life of me, I can't figure out if that would be their left or right brain working the problem out and I don't know if knowing that is really necessary for me to to do what I what to do with my horses.

Another thing I think I know is that when things aren't going well you can either go much slower, break what you want to do down into steps and begin there, or do something that your horse does well and stop on a positive note.

Thee is a project by highly respected clinician Martin Black and Dr. Stephen Peters, a neuropsychologist which resulted in a DVD titled "Exploring Evidence based Horsemanship", which is advertise to give the viewer the benefit of understanding equine brain function. I ordered the DVD after struggling with your left brain, right brain question. I hope to watch it soon and see wht I can learn from it.

Anyway Melanie, I did my best to answer your question. Maybe I just gave you more questions rather than answers, but that's not always a bad thing as I see it. Good luck and safe journey.

Disrespectful Horses? or Just Curious?

I received two e-mails with alike questions about horses who are kinda nippy to their owners. Horses are curious and with most of them, when they are comfortable, they start exploring around and usually this is with their mouths. My horses, as do most horses, do things like play with a gate latch, nuzzle your pockets in search of treats things like that.......one of my horses can open a gate latch if I don't set it properly, so sometimes I just set it up for him to unlatch then watch him flip the gate open with his nose. Sometimes I'll spend 5 minutes playing this game with him where he gets the gate open, then I back him a step then re-shut it, and so on. I think it's good for his mind.

I generally try to let horses be horses when I can. One of my horses likes to put ropes in his mouth, like the picture at the below left, with him pulling on a rope I had hanging up next to him being tied to a trailer. Every once in a while, when I'm throwing a loop from horseback he will bend to the right and put the rope in his mouth.

He will also pull some slack out of the lead line attached to one of my functional tie rings, just enough so he can get to the alfalfa cubes bucket in the trailer door, in the photo above at right. He can open a bucket, push the lid off and get to the cubes.  Sometimes he lifts the bucket with his teeth and drops it on the ground closer to himself.  Basically in my way of thinking, he is displaying some intelligence and the ability to think, so I just let him do that sometimes.  

Richard wrote: "I have a 8 year old Gelding. He's just used for trail riding. I'm his second owner. He's generally a good natured horse, but sometimes he can be a knothead. Sometimes he will bend around and nip or nuzzle at my boots, always on the left side. He never actually bites and takes ahold of my boot, he just nips. It usually catches me off guard and I flinch.  He also picks up grooming brushes if they are too close to him and chews on the handles.  Is this something normal and is there something I can do to negate this?"

I think it is normal for a horse to get curious and investigate things with his mouth.  It sounds like your gelding is just bored and feels comfortable enough with you to bend around and play bite your boot or to grab brushes. This is sort of a good thing in that he is comfortable with you, but it is annoying and a distraction to him paying attention to you. The trick is to discourage this behavior without making it a federal offense.  Don't set the brushes close to his head or mouth for instance.   

Maybe the best strategy is to pre-empt the behavior of nipping at your boots. That means to be ready for it and with your response. As soon as you see his head bending towards your boot, try using your voice and be prepared for an immediate follow on re-direction of his head with a bump of the rein. You can also bump the toe of your boot on his nose. I don't mean kicking him in the face - I mean moving your boot in the stirrup forward a little as his head is bending so he makes contact a little sooner than expected.   Timing is everything here as the idea is for him to connect bending around to bumping his nose. Again, I wouldn't make a federal offense out of it. I think sometimes it's mentally good for a horse to explore around as long as it isn't dangerous to him or you. So, I try not to limit everything my horses do that is not productive. You can also spend a lot of time trying to limit harmless behavior.....I keep telling my wife that same thing about my behavior.

Paula asked: " I enjoy your website because I can make sense out of what you write. I couldn't find an article on what to do about a horse (my 10 year Mustang) who turns his head seemingly trying to bite me when I am haltering him. It's almost like he thinks I am going to give him a treat. He is a good boy, but this drives me crazy. Once in awhile I reach up high to get a halter on him and sometimes when he turns his head to move his lips on my arm or hand and I'll lose my grip on the halter and have to start over. Can you give me some ideas on what to try? Thanks in advance"

Thanks Paula, for letting me know that I am making sense at least to you. I'm thinking about sending you my wife's phone number. Maybe you can convince her I make sense once in a while.

On one hand it's a good testament to your relationship that your Mustang feels at ease to play bite at your boots. It's likely a game for him. On the other hand this behavior can get out of hand and at first will likely manifest itself it what appears to be distraction when you are on his back. The trick is to discourage this behavior without making it a federal offense. If he is play biting then retreating he knows it is behavior that he is not supposed to do.

You cannot be his pasture mate. You have to be the strict lead gelding. In other words, be the leader both on the ground and on his back.

You can fix it up like I describes to Richard in the above response, but the horse should be running into your hand or forearm.  Again, timing is very important, it needs to seem to the horse, that he is running into something.  I would also use my voice as a warning also.   I've had horses who want to put their mouths on me when I  was haltering, so a quick bump with my palm followed by rubbing him on the nose was the way I handled it.  Really, the same way you would correct a horse who has been routinely fed by hand and leads with his mouth when addressing you.     

If he is mouthy when you halter or saddle, he may also be crowding you when you are leading from the ground.  Be cognizant of him getting into your space and always back him off if/when he does this.   I had a client with a horse who always wanted to be on top on the handler.  I told him to always think 'what if the horse spooked?,....would you be in danger of getting over run?'  Sometimes a tool like a riding crop or dressage whip can be used to remind the horse to stay out of your safety bubble....just use it with the lowest energy necessary.  I think it's important if you drive a horse away and you also call him back to you so he can think about the different cues.   Hope this helps. 

More on Using Treats to Train Horses

Megan wrote to ask about using threats to train horses....."Hello. I am under the perception that using treats to train or reward horses is a big thing to avoid. However, it makes sense to me as other animals like dogs do very well with understanding commands using treats as an incentive. A friend of mine said she watched a television program where a woman horse trainer was using treats with good results. Can you write about this?"

Bear with me Megan, as I'm going to get to your question in around about way. I would be lying if I said I don't give my horses treats by hand. Several times a week I'll stand among my horses and cut up a carrot or an apple and give them pieces. It wouldn't be uncommon for a horse to get pushy for a treat. If one of my horse's does this, I'll just back him off and make him wait, before I ask him to approach and get a treat again. There are some who despise feeding horses by hand saying that it spoils them and teaches them bad habits. I think that it certainly can spoil a horse, and the more you do it the more likely the horse will become spoiled. But I also think they'll become spoiled only if you let them.

I'll also give my horses cookies from the saddle or let them drop their heads to eat when I want them to eat if I'm in the saddle for several hours. This is another thing that is highly opinionated as some will absolutely refuse to let their horses eat when they are saddled or especially so when they are in the saddle. My practice has been to allow my horses to drop their head and grab some grass when I give them a cue. I don't like horses, especially when moving, to try and grab as something.  I correct this immediately. But, I think it's good to keep their stomachs moving when you can, especially when you are out for a long day.

If you give horses treats by hand from the saddle, you'll have to be aware of your horse stopping on his own, looking back at you and expecting a treat.

I like to say that horse's only think about one thing,.... Feed......but they think about it in two ways: where to get it and how not become it. If you are always giving your horse treats then the more inclined he is to look for them. If he's looking for cookies, then he's thinking about cookies,.... if he's thinking about cookies, he's not thinking or prepared to respond to you and what you are asking him to do.

There is some research or belief that when horses eat, they release endorphins producing a calming or sedative type effect. Some think that even when a horse drops his head, to the ground searching for feed, that they will get calmer. I have a head down cue for my horses, the same cue I use to let them know it's okay to drop their head and graze. It has come in handy when I've rode upon something really spooky for the horse. I'll ask my horse to drop his head. And while his head may go down and come back up quickly, it'll generally stay lower and longer after subsequent asking. As much as anything it gets him focused on what I am asking as opposed to the spooky thing.  But if you try to use treats to calm your horse, I think you'll only generate a horse who looks for treats. 

As far as using cookies or treats to train your horse, I guess the idea is to reward the horse with a treat once he performs as you ask. While I don't intentionally use treats to train horses, it probably has its place. I suppose if you got into the habit of giving treats out to horses in a corral or a pasture, at some point these horse would be looking for you and approaching you to get a treat. May come in handy if you don't want to walk that far to collect up a horse or if you have a horse who are a little narly when it comes to catching.

I have spent a lot of words and space not really answering your question, Megan, because I don't know enough about training with treats to really give you a good opinion. About the only time I can think of giving treats as somewhat of a training tool was asking a horse, who was 30 feet away from the trailer, to go into the trailer and stand. I did that more out of being happy with him picking that up so quick, than using it as a training tool, if that makes sense. The bottom line is that I think the best reward for a horse is in the release of pressure, whether it's mental or physical pressure. The release of pressure isn't a subtle release or a 50% release. It is a total release. And it pays to give the horse the time to think about what just happened when he has earned that release. This is the way I try to approach my horses.

Horses with Happy Feet - Won't Stand Still

I received two recent questions on horses that can't stand still. One on a horse who won't stand for saddling and another horse who won't stand still with a rider on his back.

Joyce wrote: "Thanks for your videos and site. I have not seen a video on youtube about my problem. I have a 12 yr old mare. She will NOT stand still for saddling no matter what. She moves back and forth, side to side etc. I put the saddle on and boom it is on the ground before I can get the saddle even slightly secured. I have tried her tied and untied. I have made her move and move some more and then try it again to no avail. To saddle now, I do while she is eating her grain which is really not fixing the problem. Thank you so much. I know she has an attitude but need some ideas about this. Joyce."

I am glad you recognize the saddling while feeding your horse to get her to stand still is only treating the symptoms. And while feed issues can contribute to a horse's behavior, meaning too much feed, particularly too much high energy feed can make a horse seem kind of hyper. But your mare's issue is most like a lack of respect. No offense but she may just be a spoiled horse. This is common and not her fault. She is going to do what she thinks she needs to do.

I think you have the right idea about making her move around and I suspect you then offer her a chance to stand - which is making the wrong thing work and the right thing a rest. And while this lesson is absorbed by many horses, some take longer to learn this.

I would consider doubling down on my ground work and concentrating on helping her find respect. If you watch most trainers working with a troubled horse or a horse with some problems, you would see that horse being basically started over.....being lunged in a round pen; getting that horse to move his feet; getting that horse to focus on the human; generally making the wrong thing a bunch of work or pressure and the right thing generating an immediate release. Letting that horse stand tied and learning some patience that standing still is a good thing will most likely help as well.

KK e-mailed a request to help sort out a horse that won't stand still. "My horse, a five year old gelding, just can't stand still. He doesn't jump around, just wants to continuously move his feet. It's embarrassing when I'm with friends on horses and I have to try and control him as opposed to engaging in conversation. Do you have any ideas on how to deal with this? Thanks."

Hey KK, a five year old is still a pretty young horse especially if he has only been ridden a couple dozen times a year or so. The easy advice is that a lot of wet saddle blankets will make him a more seasoned horse and stop or lessen the moving around which is most likely a little anxiety.

But what you may do is not to try and control his movement and get him to stand still but to use that energy and have him work. In other words if he wants to move then let him move but under your direction. Have him soften his head and back a step; have him move his back end over - have him move his front end over. Side pass him a step or two in each direction. This is all good for him.

I suspect that if you do this repetitively it will most likely be good for him but help him find the rest spot when standing still when asked. Safe Journey to both KK and Joyce.

How Do I Get A Horse to Stop Pawing?

Clint, as well as a couple other people, have written to ask how do they get their horse's to stop pawing, which is an issue that has plagued many horses and owners over the years. In the past when I have been asked about pawing my usual response was, "If you get it figured out let me know", because this stymied me for quite a while.

Actually, I have had two horses who had pawing issues. I really don't care, nor respond to a horse that paws when I am entering in the pen or beginning to feed as I just don't see it often enough nor choose to make it a big deal. However, I don't like my horses to paw when they are tied. The reason a horse paws is usually because they are impatient, bored (same thing really) or have some anxiety. It can be associated with pain too, such as a gut ache or colic so you have to eliminate this as a cause.

The reason I don't like pawing when tied and especially when I am saddling is that it shows that the horse is not with you or not paying attention to you. Usually when this happens, I just get the horse's attention or make him move over to distract him. Sometimes as you are moving around getting tack, picking up grooming tools or prepping the trailer, a pawing horse just isn't cutting it.

I feel like I should be embarrased that years ago I tried pawing chains, which may be best described as dog collar like straps with a six inch piece of lightweight chain, which are intended to strap around the horse's hoof at the coronary band so when he paws the chain whip around and make it uncomfortable when he paws. These did not work for me.

I have seen pawing clamps advertised as well. These appear to be "U" type clamps that are placed around the top of the horse's hoof and also designed to make it uncomfortable when the horse paws. I passed on trying these.

One method to try and stop the pawing process is when the horse paws, pick him up and move his feet making it work and then offer him to stand still and tied again.  You want him to get the idea that standing still is a good thing - that's where he gets his rest.  However, the time it takes to untie him and get him moving makes this less effective.  A tie ring that will feed the rope out in a controlled manner can work, so the pawing problem can be addressed much like you would on a horse that can't stand still when tied. 

However, some horses, mine included, will only paw when you are too far away to address it in a timely manner.  For the two horse's of mine who had pawing problems, one of these horse's would usually not paw until I was 30 or 40 feet away doing something else, so I had to resolve this by tieing him and sitting about eight feet away off to the side and behind him with a lunge stick. When they would start to paw I would make a verbal warning and hit the ground with the lunge stick at the same time. This distracted them from pawing by getting attention on the noise I was making. I can't remember how long it took me on the first horse years ago to get him to stop pawing, but the second horse I only had to do this twice, and both times were also helpful for him to learn to stand tied and be patient.

A word or warning - don't start anything with a horse unless you have the time to see it through. I sat on an old tire behind and to the side of my horse, with my lunge stick, and just waited. This actually workd out for both of us....the horse learned to be patient,...we both got a rest,...........and my wife couldn't find me to tell me to do something.

Handling Horses When Eating

Kaylay wrote and said she "remembered reading something I wrote about a year ago about cleaning a horses feet while the horse was eating but she recently read an article from Monty Roberts who said leave your horses alone when they are eating, to do otherwise would only be detrimental for them and make them mad. He was pretty adament about it in his article."

Monty Roberts is top shelf in the world of horse trainers. His ability to communicate with horses and train others to do so is legendary. If you haven't seen Monty Roberts or read any of his books, then it would be an education to do so. His book "Shy Boy" is a great read.

I have read at least some of what Monty Roberts wrote about leaving horses alone to eat. I'm going to have to disagree with him somewhat. It's not that I think you should make it a point to handle horses, rub on them, clean their feet or otherwise mess with them while they are eating, but I think that your horses should be gentled enough that you should be able to do so, just like horses should not be pushy or crowding when you are feeding, or otherwise be feed aggressive.

I routinely throw feed and while anyone of my horse's are eating I have no problem picking up a foot if I need to, picking a sticker out of their mane, put a blanket on or off, asking them to move over so I can pick manure, or even just giving them a little rubbing on the withers.  I don't see my e horses having any problem with this,....no tail twitching, no flats ears, no other signs of discomfort or anxiety.  In fact, I have one horse who will often come off his feed to come over to the fence to visit.    

Many times I trailer someplace and let my horse eat water soaked hay while I am saddling him.  Again no signs of any issues here.        

Monty Roberts is one of the best horsemen in the world and when he gives advice people should listen,..... I just have never had a problem with handing my horses while they are eating.  I see no anxiety from my horses, nor have I seemed to have created another problem.  But every horse is going to be different, so each individual horse should be read before handling that horse while they are feeding.